FOOD FOR THOUGHT 3CX or PIAF5 or Elastix5

[ncg]

Hi folks,

I'm wondering what the differences are between PIAF 5, today's new Elastix 5 and downloading 3CX directly from 3CX?

Obviously PIAF comes with Ward and this forum and that gives a sense of reassurance. But are the versions technically different? Which way should I lean?

 

[wardmundy]

They're both presumably identical under the covers so you might as well hang out where you're most comfortable.

 

[SkykingOH]

What sense of assurance? Pick your poison. Both sold their user base to an individual who's mission is diametrically opposite of their community values for monetary gain.

For more than a decade there is only one team that has consistently operated in an open and transparent manner, providing solutions for every segment from the completely free to an integrated, fully supported commercial solution.

FreePBX provides you with a solution not limited by trunks, stations or other encumbrances. The core features of FreePBX are all available in the community version including unlimited queue support.

During this revolution, my company Micro Advantage paved the way for large enterprise adoption of Open Source Telephony. We are now so proud to be part of the Sangoma family now and truly we have all come home.

Why don't you come back to the group that never left you. https://www.freepbx.org/

 

[ncg]

What sense of assurance? Pick your poison. Both sold their user base to an individual who's mission is diametrically opposite of their community values for monetary gain.

For more than a decade there is only one team that has consistently operated in an open and transparent manner, providing solutions for every segment from the completely free to an integrated, fully supported commercial solution.

Ward can pick and fight his battles better than I can, but if the PIAF and Incredible PBX world becomes one open source project and one wrapper for a commercial product that's hugely suitable for the majority of less active community members that's fine by me. The large numbers of different versions of PIAF and Incredible PBX over the last few years has been confusing for those of us not fully in the loop. Now there is new clarity and some great options, one of which looks like it will be around for the long term.

I share what I can to help other people tinker with their phones and get more done for less. The key value I have seen in this community is people willing to help each other. I've donated to this project in the past, it's been hugely helpful for me and my little business, and I totally support them if they need to do a deal with 3CX over the PIAF name.

It's a bit rich to accuse Ward of being a sell out whilst bragging about your company's massive commercial impact. And your impact I'm sure is huge, but with 50 backlinks to your website it compared to 13,000 to this one, I reckon Ward's had some serious impact too!

 

[Nick Galea]

What sense of assurance? Pick your poison. Both sold their user base to an individual who's mission is diametrically opposite of their community values for monetary gain.

For more than a decade there is only one team that has consistently operated in an open and transparent manner, providing solutions for every segment from the completely free to an integrated, fully supported commercial solution.

FreePBX provides you with a solution not limited by trunks, stations or other encumbrances. The core features of FreePBX are all available in the community version including unlimited queue support.

During this revolution, my company Micro Advantage paved the way for large enterprise adoption of Open Source Telephony. We are now so proud to be part of the Sangoma family now and truly we have all come home.

Why don't you come back to the group that never left you. https://www.freepbx.org/

Lets keep in mind that FreePBX / Schmooze telecom sold out for $4 million to Sangoma:
http://www.sangoma.com/press-releases/sangoma-completes-acquisition-two-businesses/

So how can you accuse accuse other individuals for taking some reward for years of their hard work?

Not only that, its Schmooze telecom / Sangoma / FreePBX that goes around sending out legal threats to other open source projects (Elastix) for alleged IP infringement (Elastix MT / 4)

That doesn't sound very transparent to me.

 

[wardmundy]

@SkykingOH: I doubt there would have been quite as much migration if not for some of the conduct of other players in the "community."

 

[cyberco]

3CX or PIAF5 or Elastix5 , Good question and lets be honest there is none, the difference is in the way they are being marketed. PIAF is now firmly entrenched in a DIY end of it, This can be seen as the site has no links to licence costs and no way of buying licences via it, so it seems that he isnt even a full reseller yes. Elastix lost the way at 2.4 and didnt keep basic packages uptodate. lets see what happens with 3cx , I guess they are just rebranding.
So the question stands why would you bother with either and not go direct with 3cx, 3cx is a good pbx and has a following but at scale it has a lot of better known competition in the likes of Mitel, Panasonic, NEC and avaya to name but a few and in any tender situation they will be picked above 3cx. Like wise Freepbx with Sangomas backing holds up well.
I find some irony in that for some years Ward continually went on about his perceived "closed source and licence" issues with FreePBX but has now moved over to fully licensed closed solution.
I have spoken to my Elastix customers over the last few days and given them the options and costs and come January they will all be migrating to Freepbx. The cost to customers ranged between $1300 and $5000 per customer for the first year alone, Then ongoing yearly costs.
I did laugh at the suggestion here that people should sign up as dealers to get the freeNFR licensing.

 

[Nick Galea]

3CX or PIAF5 or Elastix5 , Good question and lets be honest there is none, the difference is in the way they are being marketed. PIAF is now firmly entrenched in a DIY end of it, This can be seen as the site has no links to licence costs and no way of buying licences via it, so it seems that he isnt even a full reseller yes. Elastix lost the way at 2.4 and didnt keep basic packages uptodate. lets see what happens with 3cx , I guess they are just rebranding.
So the question stands why would you bother with either and not go direct with 3cx, 3cx is a good pbx and has a following but at scale it has a lot of better known competition in the likes of Mitel, Panasonic, NEC and avaya to name but a few and in any tender situation they will be picked above 3cx. Like wise Freepbx with Sangomas backing holds up well.
I find some irony in that for some years Ward continually went on about his perceived "closed source and licence" issues with FreePBX but has now moved over to fully licensed closed solution.
I have spoken to my Elastix customers over the last few days and given them the options and costs and come January they will all be migrating to Freepbx. The cost to customers ranged between $1300 and $5000 per customer for the first year alone, Then ongoing yearly costs.
I did laugh at the suggestion here that people should sign up as dealers to get the freeNFR licensing.

Thank you for your feedback. There will be differences in Elastix / PIAF / 3CX. Basically there will be different feature sets, licensing, marketing and more. The core engine will be 3CX on all three, quite similar to how Asterisk was the telephony engine of PIAF and Elastix. But its still early days and these things have not been worked out yet. We plan to keep and invest in all 3 communities in the form of free support, free licenses, free training and more.

It should also be noted that PIAF is the home/forum for IncrediblePBX and to a lesser extent Xivo and we fully support that.

In regards to tenders against Avaya / Mitel et all, i think you will find we are winning many of those.

When you are talking between $1300 and $5000 licensing are you talking 3CX pricing? Would you be ready to share details with me so i can look into it?

 

[cyberco]

Hi Nick

You should be able to work out the sizes of systems with that costing, At this time we are not looking at taking on any other products. I think what you are doing will add more confusion for people as PIAF seem to offer no links to licensing and doesn't even mention that above the free one they cost. Elastix is more open and I see you are explaining more there on costings.
But on both sites i think it is only fair that you should be putting the costings there, they are freely available on teh 3cx site https://www.3cx.com/ordering/pricing/ I have no problem with licensing I was s system designer and senior support for one of the UKs largest Mitel dealers for may years deploying £100K to £200K systems but the customer knew there was a licence cost. Elastix are hinting at one and PIAX doesnt seem to mention one, as I said advising people to sign up a dealer to get free licences!
I wish you all the luck with the venture but for the life of me i don't see the point and many 3cx dealers probably feel the same as well.

 

[Nick Galea]

Hi Cyberco

There is no pricing on the pbxinaflash site because its intended as a community site and whilst PIAF 5 is the follow on to PIAF 3, there are other free options on this site - IncrediblePBX as well as Xivo for example. So i think license pricing is out of place here.

With Elastix its slightly different, but here again - the intention is a community site. 3CX on the other hand is a commercial product and there pricing is available. The key supplied with these systems is 3CX so its not like we are hiding that.

Personally i think its all quite transparent but we learn everyday and in fact based on yesterdays feedback we published more information and answers to more questions today (thats on Elastix in relation to the existing users). So I will take your feedback on board.

Why would asking resellers to apply to become a 3CX partner to get NFR licenses be funny? We welcome IT and Telecom partners and have a very simple and straightforward partner program in place to which all qualified companies are invited. We offer free NFRs, free training, free support.

 

[cyberco]

Why Funny, well wasnt funny wen i showed this to a 3cx dealer

"Exactly, as Ward said - 3CX partners get free NFRs, free Training, free Support, free Certification. No commitments. So there is really nothing to stop you signing up as a 3CX partner....

however, for users who plan to be active on the forum, and just want an install in their small office or home office, we are happy to work with them to get a free license .... This is a program we are going to setup soon, give us the holidays and we will do something in January "

He supplies to small offices and sees your idea of offering FREE licences as an erosion of his market.

 

[Nick Galea]

Wait a second, thats free licenses to people who are actively helping other users on this forum. So thats hardly your average office that just wants to buy a phone system - i doubt they will spend a few months here answering questions (if they know the answers) to get a free license.

 

[wardmundy]

@cyberco: You mentioned the NFR licenses a couple of times, but I've missed the point. Are you opposed to giving resellers free licenses to learn about a product they will be selling? I think I've made clear what our intention was, i.e. to provide PIAF users with a CHOICE of platforms: commercial (which they could sell and use to earn a living or to use in their homes at no cost) or open source (Incredible PBX or XiVO/Wazo). Not sure how that hurts anybody. As for 3CX resellers fearing market erosion from free licenses for home office users, it sounds to me like your reseller friend isn't long for the telecom world anyway. Trust me. Nobody is going to earn a living selling PBXs for SOHO use. The point that I think your reseller misses is that many home users also have day jobs where they make decisions about networks and telecommunications. Personally, I would much prefer to make those decisions after actually using a product rather than basing the decision on some sales pitch.

 

[SkykingOH]

@SkykingOH: I doubt there would have been quite as much migration if not for some of the conduct of other players in the "community."

What are you taking out of context?

 

[SkykingOH]

Ward can pick and fight his battles better than I can, but if the PIAF and Incredible PBX world becomes one open source project and one wrapper for a commercial product that's hugely suitable for the majority of less active community members that's fine by me. The large numbers of different versions of PIAF and Incredible PBX over the last few years has been confusing for those of us not fully in the loop. Now there is new clarity and some great options, one of which looks like it will be around for the long term.

I share what I can to help other people tinker with their phones and get more done for less. The key value I have seen in this community is people willing to help each other. I've donated to this project in the past, it's been hugely helpful for me and my little business, and I totally support them if they need to do a deal with 3CX over the PIAF name.

It's a bit rich to accuse Ward of being a sell out whilst bragging about your company's massive commercial impact. And your impact I'm sure is huge, but with 50 backlinks to your website it compared to 13,000 to this one, I reckon Ward's had some serious impact too!

Addressing only your comment on my intentions. There is a huge difference between selling a list of users of your Open Source project and the name and selling a commercial company with a contracted revenue stream.

 

[dicko]

Ah! open source Telephony, I have used it profitably for years . . .

FreePBX is opensource and works remarkably well and has for years.
Sangoma adds some closed source modules that add cost, but you don't strictly need any at least as far as now() goes . . .

3CX is always a cost and is not not open source, it does work remarkably well as a totally SIP solution but is still very "Redmond think" in it's API's

Wazo/Xivo is open source and get's more mature as effort is applied by this community,

FreeSwitch is an option that is mostly there. Kamailio adds possible fail-over routing to all the above.

It is unlikely that 3CX can be supported in an open forum though. The other options can and will. . . .


JM2CWAE

 

[wardmundy]

Addressing only your comment on my intentions. There is a huge difference between selling a list of users of your Open Source project and the name and selling a commercial company with a contracted revenue stream.

Just one clarification. As a Sangoma shareholder, I fully appreciate who butters your bread and no apology for that is necessary, but... Sangoma purchased much more than a commercial company with a contracted revenue stream. They also purchased the FreePBX trademark, web site, and forum (which at the time was an open source, community project) PLUS a list of FreePBX users, email addresses, and more if I recall the terms of the contract correctly.

What's your point? The FreePBX Devs "sold out" in every conceivable sense of the word unless the English language has changed. So don't be bashing us for business decisions designed to benefit our users by offering more CHOICES rather than fewer. A year ago, there was no commercial alternative, no Wazo, and no Ombutel. So...

Times They Are A Changin'

 

[cyberco]

Ward
I base my comments on NFR licences on the fact that you encouraged users to apply to be a reseller to get free licences, I doubt 3cx will let this play and based on over 35 years in the industry I know of no company that allows any tom dick or harry sign up to be a dealer its not good for business or reputation.
As to 3cx dealer I did not say they were worried about soho, I said small offices very different.
I will be interested to see how long before you get upset and move on to another platform though.

 

[dicko]

Ward
I base my comments on NFR licences on the fact that you encouraged users to apply to be a reseller to get free licences, I doubt 3cx will let this play and based on over 35 years in the industry I know of no company that allows any tom dick or harry sign up to be a dealer its not good for business or reputation.
As to 3cx dealer I did not say they were worried about soho, I said small offices very different.
I will be interested to see how long before you get upset and move on to another platform though.

The difference between a soho and a so is a ho, so given the season, you should do it twice to not upset the ho's ;-)

 

[SkykingOH]

Just one clarification. As a Sangoma shareholder, I fully appreciate who butters your bread and no apology for that is necessary, but... Sangoma purchased much more than a commercial company with a contracted revenue stream. They also purchased the FreePBX trademark, web site, and forum (which at the time was an open source, community project) PLUS a list of FreePBX users, email addresses, and more if I recall the terms of the contract correctly.

What's your point? The FreePBX Devs "sold out" in every conceivable sense of the word unless the English language has changed. So don't be bashing us for business decisions designed to benefit our users by offering more CHOICES rather than fewer. A year ago, there was no commercial alternative, no Wazo, and no Ombutel. So...

Times They Are A Changin'

Ward - For the purpose of clarity I was addressing NCG's comment and him mentioning the recent acquisition of Micro Advantage's voice business.

Certainly I would be willing to defend the stewardship of the project by Tony & Company over the years and Sangoma's commitment. But that's a different discussion.