FOOD FOR THOUGHT Is PIAF Getting Long in the Tooth?

[kyle95wm]

UPDATE FROM HEADQUARTERS:

PIAF3 is once again working as of Friday, Feb. 24, 2017. For those with a crashed server, you now can build an emergency platform until you can migrate to Incredible PBX 13, Incredible PBX for Wazo, or PIAF5 powered by 3CX. Details here.


Okay so the other day I decided to try and build a PIAF VM for the hell of it. Problem is it has Asterisk 11 (old and in moth balls like @wardmundy says). Not only that but after picking PIAF the screen just hangs with a flashing cursor and nothing else. I could leave this thing running for hours and it still wouldn't move.

I think its safe to say Incredible has taken PIAF's place. I mean, why bother having a download for something that no longer works or is no longer relevant for production?

UPDATE: Saw in my terminal the legal agreement. Things seem to be moving forward now....

 

[chris_c_]

Okay so the other day I decided to try and build a PIAF VM for the hell of it. Problem is it has Asterisk 11 (old and in moth balls like @wardmundy says). Not only that but after picking PIAF the screen just hangs with a flashing cursor and nothing else. I could leave this thing running for hours and it still wouldn't move.

I think its safe to say Incredible has taken PIAF's place. I mean, why bother having a download for something that no longer works or is no longer relevant for production?

UPDATE: Saw in my terminal the legal agreement. Things seem to be moving forward now....

The most recent version PIAF 3.6.5 is from November 2015, supporting only CentOS 6.5/6.7, and Asterisk 13 (?). https://sourceforge.net/projects/pbxinaflash/files/PIAF-3.6.5-Installer/

PBX in a Flash is maintained by Tom King @darmock and Joe Roper @jroper so maybe they could explain their plans for coming out with the next version of PBXinaFlash to support the current versions of CentOS 7, Asterisk 14, and FreePBX 13..

 

[jroper]

Hi

I've not had much by way of input into PBX in a Flash since 2008.

Joe

 

[krzykat]

I don't know if Darmock has changed his position or not, but he was not happy with what he considered to be a more commercial and less open versions of FreePBX. There was talk from the folks at @phonebo.cx they made some good claims of opening up the source and posting new stuff, but I haven't seen them on here in a while. Did they give up on the idea or ??

I love Ward's, Darmock, and Joe's work here and although there is now choice with XIVO, I hope that the FreePBX version doesn't disappear. I've got a lot of time and efforts wrapped up in it.

 

[chris_c_]

I agree, it would be great if Tom and Joe would update PBXinaFlash to the current stable versions: CentOS 7, Asterisk 14, and FreePBX 13. PIAF is a solid reliable PBX with less of the extra addon software when you compare it with Incredible. With less parts, you get lower probability of something coming unglued.

 

[kyle95wm]

Forgive me, but didn't @wardmundy say that we may or may not get FreePBX 13 due to legal issues with licensing and whatnot? I think I may be confusing Incredible with the actual PIAF project.

 

[wardmundy]

Where to begin? Yes, PIAF has gotten long in the tooth. Part of the reason is because of a dramatic shift in the design of FreePBX to a quasi-commercial product that blurs the lines between free, open source code and purely commercial software. We have zero objection to the latter. In many cases, commercial software is a much better fit for those that need good support and particularly for organizations that depend upon their phone systems to survive.

Our problem with Sangoma/Schmooze has been the use of open source GPL components as bait to lure folks into using an ISO that is closed source, non-GPL code commingled with GPL code and linked to a hidden, closed source repository coupled with purely commercial add-on components. For all practical purposes, it has destroyed development of FreePBX components other than by Sangoma staff, some of whom have adopted pseudonyms on other forums to disguise their identity while touting FreePBX and/or their Distro. And, of course, some of these employees still lurk here to see what we're doing. We're happy they find the PIAF Forum useful.

As for PBX in a Flash, there will be a new Debian-based, PIAF 5 product announcement shortly. It will not use FreePBX. It will be a commercial product, and I think you will like it. For many of our gurus, it will provide an opportunity to actually earn a living doing something you love. For home use and SOHO deployments, cost will not be a deciding factor. For those that prefer true GPL products, we will continue to support both the Incredible PBX GUI and ISO as well as Incredible PBX for XiVO. And, by the way @chris_c_, there are versions of Incredible PBX (Incredible GUI and XiVO) available with no add-on components. We have no current plans to ever support FreePBX 13.

Stay tuned...

 

[chris_c_]

Thanks @wardmundy for your explanations about FreePBX and news annoucement of a coming PIAF 5 commercial offering!

Personally I try not to hate on any good functional software. I appreciate FreePBX, IncrediblePBX, Xivo, PIAF, Asterisk, even CentOS with its often hard to locate rpm packages!

I also don't hold it against anyone, such as the Sangoma guys and gals, when they need to make a living pay their bills and therefore come up with a way, such as the FreePBX Distro, to more easily and conveniently charge willing customers for their modules/apps.

I have a solution to propose to you Ward, which could help you feel better about FreePBX's hidden private module repo, by making it back into a more open and free app, like you prefer!

Fork the GPL Module Admin module in FreePBX, call it something like the "IncrediblePBX GPL Module Admin", point it to your module repo on your server, and let IncrediblePBX admins choose to download and install signed trusted GPL modules which come from your IPBX repo. Put every module you've ever made up there. Weather, Text to Speech, Speech to Text. Maybe new modules as possible such as WebRTC Conference Calls, anything you come up with. You could even have it auto patch and install the latest GPL versions of the FreePBX modules from github!

What do you think? Totally out of left field?? Impossible? Never work?

 

[krzykat]

Not a bad idea IMHO.

 

[wardmundy]

Thanks @wardmundy for your explanations about FreePBX and news annoucement of a coming PIAF 5 commercial offering!

I have a solution to propose to you Ward, which could help you feel better about FreePBX's hidden private module repo, by making it back into a more open and free app, like you prefer!

Fork the GPL Module Admin module in FreePBX, call it something like the "IncrediblePBX GPL Module Admin", point it to your module repo on your server, and let IncrediblePBX admins choose to download and install signed trusted GPL modules which come from your IPBX repo. Put every module you've ever made up there. Weather, Text to Speech, Speech to Text. Maybe new modules as possible such as WebRTC Conference Calls, anything you come up with. You could even have it auto patch and install the latest GPL versions of the FreePBX modules from github!

What do you think? Totally out of left field?? Impossible? Never work?

Not out of left field at all. In fact, we've had an independent repository for Incredible PBX for the last 18+ months. And, if you don't like ours and would prefer to roll your own repository, we've even documented how to do it: http://nerdvittles.com/?p=13462.

We've also documented how to create your own branded version of the Incredible PBX ISO: http://nerdvittles.com/?p=15723.

Great idea though.

p.s. We've done away with signature checking of FreePBX modules. The firewall keeps the bad guys out. If the bad guys managed to break into any FreePBX-based platform, rest assured they are savvy enough to disable module signature checking. For the reasons documented in the referenced articles above, Incredible PBX for XiVO is our open source, GPL platform of choice moving forward. We've provided all of the necessary tools so that anyone can pick up the torch and continue the march with FreePBX if desired. We just don't plan to waste (any more of) our time on it.

 

[chris_c_]

A footnote regarding legal nuances of open source projects @wardmundy I think you might like this because you're from a legal background!

If the open source project members really want the project to remain free open source, then they need to setup a non profit foundation to hold the ownership of the source code! E.g. the Linux Foundation, Mozilla Foundation, the Apache Foundation. Cost to set one up is about $1000. These organizations take cash donations from various sponsors to pay their ongoing operating expenses, hosting, legal, possibly salaries to a few key people, etc.

Without a non-profit foundation to own the source code, all the people who contributed lines of code to the source code, can at any time decide to band together and sell the copyright rights to a corporation which then has the legal right, as well as legal duty its shareholders, to exploit the app for profit. Something like that.

This has happened several times already. Notable ones to have somewhat abandoned their purely FOSS community for the lure of "commercial open source" are SugarCRM and of course our dear FreePBX. Both apps, in my opinion, are great values for money, if you do go for the pro supported commercial version. And both apps have free versions with a more basic set of functions. Both are open source, and anyone with some coding skill can write a module in PHP to add features.

 

[krzykat]

A footnote regarding legal nuances of open source projects @wardmundy I think you might like this because you're from a legal background!

If the open source project members really want the project to remain free open source, then they need to setup a non profit foundation to hold the ownership of the source code! E.g. the Linux Foundation, Mozilla Foundation, the Apache Foundation. Cost to set one up is about $1000. These organizations take cash donations from various sponsors to pay their ongoing operating expenses, hosting, legal, possibly salaries to a few key people, etc.

Without a non-profit foundation to own the source code, all the people who contributed lines of code to the source code, can at any time decide to band together and sell the copyright rights to a corporation which then has the legal right, as well as legal duty its shareholders, to exploit the app for profit. Something like that.

This has happened several times already. Notable ones to have somewhat abandoned their purely FOSS community for the lure of "commercial open source" are SugarCRM and of course our dear FreePBX. Both apps, in my opinion, are great values for money, if you do go for the pro supported commercial version. And both apps have free versions with a more basic set of functions. Both are open source, and anyone with some coding skill can write a module in PHP to add features.

Couldn't anyone with a copy of the open source simply decide to fork it and do whatever they like with it? There are some pretty successful open source with a commercial offering / addon. I really like that model. It gives the opportunity for a little guy to learn and grow. Multiple people can give their input to the software. Plus, if someone likes it and wants it for a business use, they'd probably WANT to pay for it to get it prettier/have tech support/etc. A product I'm using now that I love that has this thought is Nagios.

 

[jerrm]

Couldn't anyone with a copy of the open source simply decide to fork it and do whatever they like with it?

They could. The GPL parts of the fork have to remain GPL, the fork couldn't "privatize" the existing source. Any mods to existing source have to remain GPL. Parts could be replaced with clean room closed equivalents or bolt-on new closed components though.

Theoretically, if the original open source maintainer could get buy-in from all contributors to "FreeWidget 1" then they could release "PaidWidget 2" as a completely closed source product. Doing so would be difficult if there is any community involvement.

A Foundation doesn't necessarily prevent anything from going commercial, like anything else it depends on the integrity of the founders, board and the founding documents.

 

[dicko]

All almost rational thinking apart from a basic "who are they?", is it you? It certainly wasn't Trickybox , Elastix or Thirdlane . .

 

[krzykat]

So what would be the next step? Would we carry the name PIAF 4.x ? I would suggest it be on github. I know Ward has carried the torch for a long time. He's given a LOT of info on how to do it. I doubt that it could get very far off the ground without at least assistance from Ward, but if enough people want to help out, I bet we could make it fly. I know @phonebo.cx has placed most of the source on github already, and they expressed a genuine position of wanting to go forward with that, but they've kind of dropped off the map since then.

 

[kyle95wm]

What Im still confused about is the difference between PIAF and Incredible. Why should someone get either PIAF or Incredible? Does either one give advantages over the other?

 

[krzykat]

Incredible comes bundled with a lot of goodies already preconfigured, including a pretty iron-clad firewall. I recommend for those that don't know or are starting out and want something that just works to go with incredible.

What we're discussing now though has little to do with that. We're discussing the merits of going forward with the FreePBX version, as Ward now wants to dedicate most efforts towards the XIVO incarnation of Incredible.

 

[wardmundy]

Here's the problem. Pieces of Tom's original PIAF installer were encrypted and were dependent on a number of repos that simply have not been kept up to date. Yes, I can provide the source, but it wouldn't be of much use. Nothing has been done with the PIAF3 code in the past 2 1/2 years! In short, every component in PIAF 3 has reached end of life as have the repos upon which it depends.

Incredible PBX was our effort to develop a pure, open source platform using publicly available repos. Despite that, there has been little code contribution (other than a few bug fixes) from anyone except my team, i.e. me. The Incredible PBX goodies are totally optional except in the images for virtual machines and Raspberry Pi. If you want to build an independent setup on GitHub or elsewhere, Incredible PBX would be the one to go with. I'd be happy to provide all the necessary pieces, most of which already are documented on Nerd Vittles. I can't provide much assistance on the older releases of PIAF. That would be akin to starting over in my opinion. Keep reading for why that's a bad idea.

I think it is worth mentioning that the current Incredible PBX 13 build relies upon FreePBX 12 GPL modules which are no longer supported or maintained by Sangoma/Schmooze. Without considerable new effort and substantial programming, moving to FreePBX 13 modules would be equally painful. With every new release, their development team has made it more and more difficult to use the GPL components of FreePBX without serious breakage. The mystery team that appeared to announce they were decoding FreePBX 13 disappeared just as suddenly as they appeared. Would you really want to develop a product that was dependent upon them??

Perhaps now it is clear why we've decided to move on with Incredible PBX for XiVO. It is robust, well maintained, supported, and current. And it gets better every day. Personally, I think you're hitching your horse to the wrong wagon to continue down the FreePBX road when that company has shown no interest in opening up their platform to anyone that doesn't provide them a recurring revenue stream.

 

[krzykat]

Perhaps now it is clear why we've decided to move on with Incredible PBX for XiVO. It is robust, well maintained, supported, and current. And it gets better every day. Personally, I think you're hitching your horse to the wrong wagon to continue down the FreePBX road when that company has shown no interest in opening up their platform to anyone that doesn't provide them a recurring revenue stream.

I hear you and I don't necessarily disagree. My bigger issue is the ramp up time for Xivo to have all the functionality that we currently enjoy plus our learning curve on the FreePBX platform. Will I be able to jump into Xivo (hopefully spring training) and have it do most of what I want? Maybe, but it really is a different beast. Xivo core items such as real-time, multi-tenant, and failover are HUGE !!!! Those are the underlying engine pieces that makes it far superior to FreePBX. The front end (granted I haven't even installed my first instance yet) is not there yet though. Could pieces of the FreePBX front end be ported to XIVO?

The UCP that is pretty new for FreePBX I think is a big piece that I've needed for clients. I don't care how much work I have to do behind the scenes if it is good for the client. My philosophy is that I manage and maintain the system for them, they get the best in Unified Communication available.

 

[wardmundy]

@krzykat: All I can suggest is to take the (free) 4-month test drive on Vultr yourself. The two major wrinkles in XiVO were getting the SIP settings squared away and setting up trunks. All of that is now handled automatically with a XiVO Snapshot as part of the install. The rest is virtually identical to the way you did things with FreePBX. The one missing piece has been a GUI for IVRs, and that is on the way. In the meantime, there is an IVR sample which is easy to clone. XiVO also has a client component for PCs, Macs, and Linux desktops. It runs circles around UCP.