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Old 04-15-08, 11:25 AM
mtennant mtennant is offline
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Digium=Ostrich or Dinosaur?
I've read with interest the ongoing articles on www.Nerdvittles.com about Digium changing their API commands in 1.4 and 1.6. I tend to agree with Ward on this. Why break things when you can allow them to work natively or provide a conversion routine to move deprecated commands forward?

I have in the back of my mind that this is a deliberate strategy of Digium, as their official explanations don't make sense to me. I am afraid they are doing this for strategic reasons that have not been revealed.

I'm starting this here because the comment system on Nerd Vittles isn't as user friendly to me as this one.

Comments?

Last edited by wardmundy : 04-15-08 at 02:54 PM. Reason: fixed link
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Old 04-15-08, 12:12 PM
mystere mystere is offline
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I prefer the old addage "Attribute not to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity".

Maybe digium simply didn't think it was worth it to spend the time on compatibility, considering there are so many other factors involved with an upgrade, this seems minor.
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Old 04-15-08, 12:18 PM
Alex728 Alex728 is offline
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does seem a bit rum to me - why change everything so quickly? I don't do much custom stuff but it just doesn't seem logical to me

I've also got concerns about Zaptel - was looking for something else and found that TDM400 cards are being desupported this year in favour of some new ones which can have on board echo cancel (as an extra)

At the moment the Zaptel drivers support TDM400 cards and all the clones - but will/can Digium use this as an opportunity to try and stop competitors from using "their" drivers?

Wasn't the original Zaptata card an open source hardware design? certainly the FXO/FXS design appears to be as they seem to sell them for David Rowes project...
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Old 04-15-08, 01:14 PM
kenn10 kenn10 is offline
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I Think Its Just Dumb Programmers....
Originally Posted by mystere View Post
I prefer the old addage "Attribute not to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity".
I agree with your analysis. I believe Digium does things like this because the bulk of them are programmers and not strategists. Programmers lack a lot of common sense at times. They may be brilliant people but will sometimes be seeking some ultimate goal while wearing blinders and without proper consideration for what preceded. I would guess the product is so complex and evolving so quickly that Mark Spencer cannot oversee everything on a day-to-day basis.

Whatever the cause, I agree with Ward that its damned annoying when the commands keep getting deprecated.

[/rant] Meanwhile, the changed commands do not necessarily provide noticeable enhancements to the product. Simply suggesting something practical like we need shared call appearances brings down the anger of Mark Spencer at Digium and Kerry from Trix proclaiming that anyone who wants shared call appearances is an idiot and so are their customers.

Sad thing is that Avaya, Nortel and Siemens (even Cisco) all have that functionality and customers want it. I see this as a major contributor to Asterisk being viewed more as a techie hobby product or college project than the mature product it has become. This single feature will continue to keep Asterisk out of most Fortune 500's until someone wakes up. [/end rant]
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Old 04-15-08, 02:07 PM
Alex728 Alex728 is offline
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New dialplans etc aside I've done a fair bit of looking on asterisk.org to try and find out "what you get" with Asterisk 1.6 and its not entirely clear

as a Brit I find there are still a lot of loose ends with Asterisk and analogue phone trunks.

For instance in most cases there is no need to wait for 2-3 rings before picking up "to get caller ID" in this country as its been delivered before the phone even starts ringing (reversal, then an alert tone then v23 burst)

Also there still isn't easy detection of progress tones yet (maybe its in compile options somewhere), for instance there is a difference between engaged, equipment engaged and unobtainable tone (which doesn't translate exactly to just "busy" and "reorder" tone)

Surely things like this should be cleared up before moving to the "newest" version? (If they are cleared in in 1.6 I can't easily find them)

I know its all "free" but it when things like this happen (and when people like ward just get ignored) I get the impression the companies are simply recovering the costs by using the community as a development resource and then building their "business product" on it but not putting the gains back 100%... (unlike red hat etc)

Although I'm not a developer I'm willing to learn and contribute what I can (and maybe one day I will start learning a bit more C etc) but if I participate in FOSS software (and this is my first time getting this involved) I want to do it in the proper way..

Last edited by Alex728 : 04-15-08 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 04-15-08, 02:48 PM
jehowe jehowe is offline
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I was really disappointed in Jared's response. There is such a disconnect going on that I have to wonder if Digium's developers actually use Asterisk to any extent. Or at least understand who the growing number of Asterisk users are. If they did, then surely they would understand where Ward is coming from.

All of us can appreciate Digium's motivation to push Asterisk forward as far and as fast as it can, but not at this cost. As Ward points out, what good will a more efficient and stable engine be with no one using it? Forcing users to start over every year is going to be a no go for businesses and simple home users alike. Not only that, but a developing environment that unstable will guarantee the loss of many brilliant third party contributors (possibly Ward included), and Digium may find it's user base has shrunk to hobbyists.
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Old 04-15-08, 06:00 PM
jabbrass jabbrass is offline
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Asterisk Platform
What the developers at Digium are completely missing is the fact that Asterisk has become a platform, an interface between computer processing power and the phone.

Asterisk is a platform.

Shifting the foundations every 6 months makes the entire structure built on the platform collapse.

This communication problem between core developers third party developers results from this fundamental misunderstanding about how Asterisk is being utilized.

The core developers envision a complete stand alone product that does everything everyone wants it to do. They see changing the code as necessary only because it is meant to stand alone by itself.

But just like many open source projects out there, the code built on the platform adds the real value to each user. When the core developers walk away from the custom configuration their users employ to make their product useful, we all lose.

We all lose, if we cannot resolve this problem.
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Old 04-15-08, 06:28 PM
mystere mystere is offline
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I've been losing confidence in Digium as the primary developer of asterisk for quite some time now. I'm keeping my eye on freeswitch, which looks promising. It seems to be pretty good for a backend system, but is less mature in the PBX components.

They seem to be much more architecture and platform oriented, which appeals to me. But who knows, maybe they'll self-destruct before they get there.
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Old 04-16-08, 04:18 AM
jroper jroper is offline
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I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this whole issue so I thought I write it down to see if I could come to a conclusion.

Customer Perception

On one hand, I'd rather not have any of my customers reading Ward's article without an understanding of the OSS world, and then either complaining about the shiny new system I've sold them, or indeed not buying it, because they are worried about not being able to upgrade.

I can counter that argument by saying that exactly the same situation will exist in the proprietary market, except that the pace of change is not so quick because they have less developers, and a smaller testbed, so it's not so noticeable.

At least asterisk is standards based, so we are not going to have to throw away all our phones when we upgrade, unlike many proprietary PBX systems

It is likely that there is not a major upgrade path with a proprietary system, yes, there will be fixes and additions, but I would doubt if there is a major upgrade available on the same hardware.

However, having said that, PiaF, FreePBX and Ward in particular has coped with the dial plan issues, and although it has been a right royal pain, it has been done in a very very short space of time in the grand scheme of things, and very successfully

There in lies the beauty and curse of OSS software.


General Development Issues

When you program something, or provide a product, quite often you find that your users do not use the system in the way that you had envisaged, or having released it, you think of a better way of doing stuff, and you have to adjust your path to take advantage of this. Take text messaging as an example, that came about by accident, when it was released, they did not even charge for it.

Thus, you often find that you have programmed yourself into a corner, which you can only get out of by throwing the whole lot up in the air and starting again.

I know that Philippe at FreePBX is suffering from programming decisions made some years ago, which makes some of the features in FreePBX difficult to achieve without convoluted and complicated code.

However his view is to keep working round the problem, and rewriting things very carefully so as not to break it. He cannot throw things in the air and expect to get away with it , as he has not got the programming resource that Digium has.

So on one hand, I want to see the Asterisk base code improve with extra features, and I do understand that you have to break stuff in order to improve the system. However, I do wonder if stuff is being broken for the sake of it.

e.g. when you get a message like this one: -

Code:
pbx*CLI> sip debug
SIP Debugging enabled
The 'sip debug' command is deprecated and will be removed in a future release. Please use 'sip set debug' instead.
Both commands work interchangeably now in that version - why can't they be left working in future versions.


Competition issues

This morning, I got an email from Digium entitled what's new at Digium, and top of the page is their SwitchVox appliance, which is a PBX designed for small and medium business.

This smacks of a wholesaler operating in a retail market. We base our systems on Asterisk, and we supply a PBX for small and medium business (and more).

Should I be worried that in the future, when/if Asterisk is the dominant player in the PBX market, which may be in part due to our (community) efforts, that they will do things to the underlying core of Asterisk to make it difficult for FreePBX, and thus make SwitchVox, their own product, more attractive to the purchaser?

Will they stop supporting Digium cards because we've installed FreePBX on Asterisk, because financially, that makes them better off?

If I was a hard-nosed business investor looking for maximum return, who had invested in Digium, I'd try and make it as hard for everyone else as I could, in order to reduce the competition.

Am I being paranoid or cynical if I wonder whether these changes are the symptoms of making life difficult for us, in order to reduce the competition?

I know that they have to make money to survive and grow, but I'm not sure that running with the hare, and hunting with the hounds is right.

Passing the Buck

We have been accused of passing the buck to FreePBX, Digium, and other players in this space when there is a problem. We are not. PiaF just drags a whole lot of good stuff together, and presents it as a package.

However, we are in a good position to see problems, and yes we may be able to fix those problems with an update-fixes, but it is much better to report those issues back to the original development team so they can fix them for everyone, and for future releases. That is how the software gets better. Incidentally, they also report back to us if we have assembled something wrongly, and that's our problem, so we fix it.

That is exactly what Ward has done here, and clearly someone is taking notice, the latest contributor to comment on his article is Leif Madsen, co-author of TFOT

In Conclusion

Ward's article has raised the concerns of the community, and particularly those who want to invest time, money and energy in this, from forum members, hobbyists, VAR's and fortune 500 companies.

To use the car analogy used by Jared when cars were first manufactured, they had all sorts of different ways of controlling them, tillers instead of wheels, different pedal arrangements, different power plants, e.g.steam, and it was not until the late 20's that cars were standardised to be the way they have been for the last 75 years or so, e.g. wheel in each corner, driven by petrol engine, and an ABC pedal arrangement.

Can we take it then that Asterisk development is still in the car equivalent of the 1920's, and we can expect in the future that they will release versions where they don't swap the pedals around. And now they have decided on the formula, will Asterisk just get better and better?

If this is the case, and this is an end to major syntax changes, and from now on (V1.6 forward), they are adding new stuff, not breaking existing stuff, as far as is possible, then I find that quite acceptable.


Joe Roper

Last edited by jroper : 04-16-08 at 04:22 AM.
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  #10  
Old 04-16-08, 10:40 AM
Alex728 Alex728 is offline
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TBH I think its more like designing a milk float or delivery van than a racing car, it needs to be robust and reliable...

and if they are not careful they could end up like British Leyland/Rover..
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