QUESTION PIAF w/ POTS lines...clearly an icky topic.

smallhagrid

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Thanks.
Here I'll reply to both of these very helpful replies:
GomezAddams said:
One point of advice: If you buy a multiport FXO card (or two), or a single gateway unit, you have a significant impact if it fails.​
5 Obi 110 units will be about the same price, but if one fails, the impact is low. You can afford to keep a spare. On the other hand, OBI's don't have hardware echo cancellation. I've not run into problems, but I've not used them much in this manner.​
As you've found, there is documentation on the web as how to use the Obi's FXO and FXS ports with asterisk.​
ESX is simple to use. 30 minutes and you'll have your virtual machine up and running. But, it is probably overkill. Just grab an old PC and run your PBX on on it. Keep a spare around just in case.
That is a route to go, but you still have the issue of multiple network connections and power as well. Most small server closets, in my experience, power is not a luxury. If anything, if external was chosen, I would do two 4 port gateways and evenly distribute the lines.

The server closet was created with ample power available - and the phone system has a very long run UPS, extra surge protection and surge protection on all POTS lines (we get some bad T-storms here as well as lots of dirty power).

Failure & impact wise, I am currently leaning strongly towards the Obi-based FXO solution for all the exact reasons which Mr. Addams provided above.

I can easily set up a PBX PC of good, solid h/w, have 5 Obi boxes actively in use, and a spare also - and network capacity is as easy for this as adding a switch and some cabling.

The main hurdle I've tried to explain is that of choosing the types of h/w and the specific bits themselves in order to get the best reliability for years of good service without my having to drive a couple of hours to fix (or replace...) the system regularly.

I do most of my work remotely and the PCs in this office perform very well with just routine attentions from me via VNC.
 

smallhagrid

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Thank You Very Much Andrew !!:
After logging in to my account at TelephonyDepot.com I priced a Digium TDM card
A8A00F - $197.20
VPM032 (hardware EC) - $181.70
4 Port FXO - $135.30
Single Port FXO (XM100) - $34.00
Shipping - $11.75

$559.95 Delivered

5 outgoing lines, 3 spare lines for 'growth' (not sure adding POTS lines is growth <g>).

Regards,

Andrew
As I know nothing of these exact devices, I will look carefully at them and consider your suggestions vs. the idea of a PC with 5 Obi boxes.

For me, the h/w portion of all the VOIP stuff is a minefield; too many options and no really good way for a man to figure out what is truly good vs. what is just a sales pitch by clever sales folks.

In terms of the PC PBX idea, I view PIAF as a very good solution because of this forum as well as the fact that it seems deigned for the ease of folks like myself who have a need to step into VOIP as a solution for their situation.
I have no need to make it a career move - though I am open to doing more work with VOIP if it is possible for me to learn enough so as to be more confident about the subject.
Any such attainment is quite a ways off though - for now I just appreciate the good help the kind folks here are generously providing in helping me to find my way through this minefield, in some safety.
 

SkykingOH

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While these are workable options I think they have a "science fair" aspect to them.

Using a single gateway with sufficient ports is proper in a business phone system. I echo the Patton is a good Gateway.

However that's not what I would do. Sounds like the boss is old school. Anytime you convert analog to digital any imbalance can cause echo. Both Sangoma and Digium make very high quality cards with built in hardware echo cancellation. The machine will be completely self contained and be easier to maintain.

For the box I would recommend the Supermicro 1U Atom appliances. They are sub $500 and enterprise quality. Combine with a pair of Samsung EVO Pro SSD's with a 10 year warranty and run the mirrored.

What kind of IP phones are you looking at?

Does the boss expect to be able to put a line on hold and pick it up at any phone like he could with your old squared up PBX?
 

smallhagrid

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Hello Atsak, and thanks.

I agree that simplicity is good:
This is one of the times I'd think seriously, given the limited exposure to VOIP and the need for copper support, about an appliance. For 2-300.00 more you'll get everything in a simple box that will work.

Switchvox or AAstraLink or the Grandstream are a couple that run on Asterisk is but are self contained appliances. I don't use them but it seems to me you've got a really big learning curve here that will suck up a lot of time that might not be worth it for you.
I also do not know enough in order to choose which h/w appliance may be a good fit for a good, long time of reliable service.

And...as I said before, for a newbie to VOIP like myself, the h/w aspect of it is truly a minefield !!

Software-wise, in my decades of IT work I have learned that for me - the best way to deal with conceptual shifts is to mindfully dive into a project knowing that learning is at hand - ask as many good questions as possible - get good info from those who know more - choose what seems best from the info others have generously provided - make final choices - and proceed from there into the actual 'doing' phase.
 

smallhagrid

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Hello SkykingOH, and my sincere thanks.

You have a very good point here:
While these are workable options I think they have a "science fair" aspect to them.
Still, it may be that having one box for the PBX and 5 separate Obi boxes for the POTS lines is a good fit from what I've seen so far just in this helpful thread.

Thanks again:
Using a single gateway with sufficient ports is proper in a business phone system. I echo the Patton is a good Gateway.
Are there a bunch of Patton units one must choose from ?? How would I know which would work, if so, please ??

100% correct !!:
However that's not what I would do. Sounds like the boss is old school.
Very old school indeed.

Thanks, it will be very good to know how to make sure to avoid echoes:
Anytime you convert analog to digital any imbalance can cause echo. Both Sangoma and Digium make very high quality cards with built in hardware echo cancellation. The machine will be completely self contained and be easier to maintain.
I also wonder if the echo troubles will apply specifically if I go with using the Obi boxes after all ??

Thanks for this good info:
For the box I would recommend the Supermicro 1U Atom appliances. They are sub $500 and enterprise quality. Combine with a pair of Samsung EVO Pro SSD's with a 10 year warranty and run the mirrored.
In the past I've always had very good long-term results using 5400RPM HDDs for such things; I also favour long warrantees though, so your whole suggestion here is very attractive to me in terms of reliability.

I confess near-total cluelessness and bafflement:
What kind of IP phones are you looking at?
Because of the squizzilion IP phones offered. That is just one HUGE minefield for me to navigate !!!
The stations need not be fancy or complex; as I said above, this is to replace an older system so they need not be flashy with excessive features which will not be used.

Absolutely, yes:
Does the boss expect to be able to put a line on hold and pick it up at any phone like he could with your old squared up PBX?
A complete necessity - is this a problem to make happen for some reason ??

Part of the time there is a helper who greets visitors and answers phones, screens calls and transfers them to whomever.
Not so different from the key system days.
I do hope this functionality is possible with VOIP systems ??

Thanks Again !!
 

MGD4me

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Does the boss expect to be able to put a line on hold and pick it up at any phone like he could with your old squared up PBX?​
A complete necessity - is this a problem to make happen for some reason ??

Once you understand the basic difference between a Key system, and a PBX, then you can appreciate how calls are processed in each case.

With a traditional Key system, if you have (say) 4 telephone 'lines', then you can imagine that all 4 lines will "appear" on all telephone sets, through the use of keys (switches, really). Since all 4 lines terminate directly on the phones (more-or-less), then it is a relatively simple matter technically speaking, to switch from one line to another, or place "on hold".

In a PBX environment, these same 4 'lines' are terminated at the PBX, and are now referred to as 'trunks', since the PBX will be the 'man-in-the-middle' answering and forwarding calls, and offering all sorts of extra features and services not possible with a traditional Key system.

There is no easy way to place a call from one extension to another, with a Key system, for example, unless you call 'out' on one line, and back 'in' on another. This one internal call would decrease the number of available lines by two, severely limiting the normal workflow. With a PBX, one extension can direct dial any extension, and still maintain full trunk Inbound/Outbound capacity.

Now, instead of placing a call 'on-hold' in the old sense, the call is 'parked' into an area called the parking lot. It is like a reserved number of phantom extensions, and parked calls are retrieved by dialing one of these reserved parking lot numbers, like '71', '72', etc. The parked call can enjoy(?) either canned messages, or music, while being held for someone to resume the conversation. This 'someone' could be either the original call taker, or by any other person at any other extension. You can also set time-out limits, so that parked calls do not get left 'on hold' forever, and direct them to either someone's voicemail box, or have it ring somewhere else. All features not available with a Key system.

The implementation of 'on-hold' is completely different on a PBX (as explained above), which will require a couple of habit changes. Since you are faced with a 'really old school' audience, then the PBX should operate as closely as possible to the old system. And part of this starts with the choice of phone. This is the only device the end user will see, and interact with, and could care less about all the star wars technology hidden in a closet. This is where their experience begins, and ends.

So, it would be critical for you to research phones in depth, and not cheap out here. To achieve a system that is anywhere close to an old style Key system, then you absolutely would need phones that could:

- have programmable keys, such that one could be configured to Park a call, to emulate the 'Hold' Key function.
- have the capability of showing the status of the other phone extensions, and also perhaps the Parked slots, through the use of indicator lights, called 'BLFs'
- you didn't indicate whether your 5 phones would be in close proximity, or are they somewhat spread out. Like, is there a phone located in the Shipping/Receiving area where it would be nice to have hands-free Intercom ability? Yep, the phone could auto-answer a page, and communicate without the shipper having to run to the phone.
- finally (for me), does your building have/use an overhead paging/announcement system that you would like to interface to?

Just a few situations or features worth considering now, before determining that all you need is a simple system. First, we need to really define 'simple'!
 

smallhagrid

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Hello MGD4me.
Once you understand the basic difference between a Key system, and a PBX, then you can appreciate how calls are processed in each case.

I apologize for using a key system as my rather poor example.
(It was the best example I could come up with at the time, sorry !!)
Line appearance buttons are well known to me as I was actually a Picazo installer back when it existed - worked with Dash and Telecor branded stuff as well.

Currently there is a Nitsuko PBX and an Amanda VM system in place at the office.
The Nitsuko exposure I had was quite shocking to me as it was so very incomprehensible due to its horribly translated docs.
I was very fortunate to find a local installer who was willing to work with me as programming it was a real nightmare.
It actually has programmable buttons and some of those are also currently used to show/get all 5 POTS lines on each phone.

Yes, you've explained very well, thank you:
The implementation of 'on-hold' is completely different on a PBX (as explained above), which will require a couple of habit changes. Since you are faced with a 'really old school' audience, then the PBX should operate as closely as possible to the old system. And part of this starts with the choice of phone. This is the only device the end user will see, and interact with, and could care less about all the star wars technology hidden in a closet. This is where their experience begins, and ends.

This is a huge portion of why I seek help with this stuff:
So, it would be critical for you to research phones in depth, and not cheap out here. To achieve a system that is anywhere close to an old style Key system, then you absolutely would need phones that could:
- have programmable keys, such that one could be configured to Park a call, to emulate the 'Hold' Key function.
- have the capability of showing the status of the other phone extensions, and also perhaps the Parked slots, through the use of indicator lights, called 'BLFs'
I have looked at a bunch of phones and have no idea what might be good, bad or otherwise - and I worry about how much is real vs. just being a clever sales pitch.
It will be much better to have solid advice from good folks rather than getting stuck with $1000+ of useless phones.

The office is just a converted older house, and:
- you didn't indicate whether your 5 phones would be in close proximity, or are they somewhat spread out. Like, is there a phone located in the Shipping/Receiving area where it would be nice to have hands-free Intercom ability? Yep, the phone could auto-answer a page, and communicate without the shipper having to run to the phone.
- finally (for me), does your building have/use an overhead paging/announcement system that you would like to interface to?
Has rooms which are now offices - no paging system there or desired, and it is just 2 floors with an open basement - not a very big place a'tall.

OK:
Just a few situations or features worth considering now, before determining that all you need is a simple system. First, we need to really define 'simple'!
I do very much hope what I've added helps to clarify a bit ?!?
I may not know all the best questions to ask and this is new territory for me.

The replies from the good folks here are thus far very, very helpul and hugely appreciated !!!
 
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Unless you go with server class hardware and SAS (serial attached SCSI) disks, avoid mechanical disk drives. All of the current SATA stuff has (relatively) dismal reliability records. Go with quality SSDs and you'll have fewer problems.
 

smallhagrid

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Thanks GomezAddams !!
I have observed the same.
I agree with you completely about the dismal reliability of SATA stuff.
HDD failures, especially for those >300GB have become 'normal' along with the inevitable data loss thereby.

This is why I have literally stuck with 5400RPM PATA drives on anything purposed for constant, long service.
(Even when I needed to use a PATA=>SATA adapter to get it connected.)

All this obsessive need for ever faster stuff with absurdly large capacities has only brought about lower quality storage (just based upon my own observations & seeing what others have written).

What amazes me these days is how much can now be stuffed into a single micro SD card.
(Ccompared to when the original floppy disks only held 180K or less...)
This makes me wonder about (as well to doubt) the reliability of such small devices with such huge capacities.

I am still somewhat reluctant to trust high capacity SSDs for that same reason - 'cuz there ain't much inside the box.

I've gotten good results with sanely sized sanely sized SSDs and micro SD cards.
At the very same time - for me, a 32GB class 10 micro SD card is still a bit hard to trust.
Bigger than that ??
Too long a stretch for me old brain right now.

Thanks, and Best Wishes.
 
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Less in the box means less to fail :)
Or, as one of my teachers put it: "The only part that is 100% reliable is a part that isn't there."
 

smallhagrid

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Hello Again AndyInNYC.

I looked at what you pointed out at TelephonyDepot.com:

The Digium A8A00F analog PCI card($216.75)
The VPM032 echo cancellation module ($199.75)
4 Port FXO X400M ($148.75)
Single Port FXO XM100 ($37.99)

I see that these items combined make for the needed FXO portion to add into a PC PBX with EC and will come to around $600.

My very 1st thought runs right back to the idea of 6 Obi boxes being 1/2 that much money ???
(2nd to that is wondering whether using Obi boxes as FXO adapters will result in echo or not ??)

The 5 POTS lines are all there will ever be; any growth later on is almost assured to be via VOIP & GV or an ITSP

I thank you for taking the time to point these specific items out for me.

With regards to this query as it has progressed for me=>
My strongest desire here would be to get info from folks about things they have used for similar projects that had good results.

The info generously given thus far points in all different directions according to what different folks think is best, but has avoided very much specific mention of the exact items that they've used themselves.

Can it truly be that very few folks here have ever been called upon to make a PC PBX for anyplace still using POTS lines ?!?

That would be amazing to me.

Thanks.
 

islandtech

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I have a few. One is in a long term contract and is using Grand Stream GXW4104, others using OBI110's until porting when contract is up.
They haven't said anything about echo
 

smallhagrid

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Thanks so much Islandtech !!!
That is excellent & very helpful info.

Based upon that info I'm imagining that it might be possible to either use that same GXW4104 with an Obi box as the 5th FXO port, or just move into a GXW4108 instead...

I wonder if anyone else will pitch in some more ?!?

Thanks.
 
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Can it truly be that very few folks here have ever been called upon to make a PC PBX for anyplace still using POTS lines ?!?

That would be amazing to me.

Thanks.


Not really amazing. Add up the monthly costs of those five POTs lines and you'll see why everyone switches to a VoIP provider.
 

SkykingOH

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Sorry guys I jumped in (always lurking) because I thought the OP was getting overloaded and going overboard so let's touch on a few things.

1 - Digium and Sangoma both have 8 port cards. Digium is Asterisk and Sangoma is FreePBX so with either choice you get real business class support. In all fairness Obi and Schmooze announced them as a certified partner. None of this changes the fact that DAHDI and WANPIPE (the drivers for Digium and Sangoma cards) are as mature as Asterisk itself. Active digital echo cancelation is not included in a $50 gateway. Only in very costly enterprise gateways.

2 - 5 gateways is a disaster. 5 management web pages to configure, 5 power supplies, 5 network connections, you get the idea. The gateways will also require 5 trunks on the PBX.

3 - Frankly, I could care less your boss wants to keep his pots lines. Your job as a technologist is to analyze the benefits of switching to a VoIP, I don't know what your drivers are but if you can't pitch the value prop to the business then a flaw exists in the plan. A much more considered approach would be to drop 3 pots lines and use a hybrid VoIP/TDM so the $2000 annual cost savings is added to the ROI. In the event of loss of POTS or Internet only your capacity is impaired. Creative use of no answer transfer and busy call forward will make it a seamless process.

4 - You need to pick a feature set, budget an aesthetic that matches your business. Choose phones that fit within that subset then involve everyone in the final selection process. Vesting your users in the selection process will make them more receptive to and willing to undergo the pain of change.

5 - Users use to using a hybrid system in the same manner as a squared up key system as you have are going to struggle with the park, page and transfer process that replaces the simple Joe is on line 3 technique that is ingrained. If the users are over 40, not computer comfortable, don't use smart phones are all additive risk factors to the success of your deployment.

6 - Analog and digital don't mix. Analog lines use tones and electrical voltages instead of data messages to signal on hook, off hook and DTMF. Lines hang, ring can be delayed DTMF can become less reliable.

I am not looking to dissuade you from the project, just transfer your focus to the planning that will dictate your success or failure. Hard drive selection is not high on the risk matrix.

Good luck and keep asking questions.
 

synack

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I agree with lgaetz.
I was just thinking this morning that the reason a lot haven't chimed in, is that those with that experience would rather forget it.
Playing with POTS can be error prone and frustrating and most have given it up in favor of more pure VoIP solutions. I personally would only use POTS as a transition step or maybe for redundancy and faxing. I keep a spare grandstream 4108 around for such occations, but again it's not perfect and I make sure everyone knows it before hand to set expectations.

In all honesty though, your requirements seem to dictate that you replicate exactly what you already have... so what's wrong with what you already have? What is the driver for change? I personally wouldn't want to touch setting up a key system on POTS using asterisk/freepbx with any length pole. That is just not what the software is made for. It can be done, but it won't be easy.
 

synack

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I think what i'm saying is that the reason why we are redirecting you and not answering your question directly, is that in our experience what your asking is not the best way to go at it.
So we ARE sharing our experiences, just not in the way you are hoping for.
 

wa4zlw

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i agree. I switched our synagogue away from POTS 4-5 years ago. We had a few POTS lines. Switched all to VoIP and don't look back. As others have said, the cost savings alone is tremendous.

We also use one of the fax-->email services and we have a fax connected via a ATA as well. The Rabbi has multiple locations and is interconnected and also via his smartphone so when he travels he's still available. It's a real no-brainer.

We're just running the pbx on a foxconn box that shows up in the threads here now and then. works well.

Leon
 

smallhagrid

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Truly Excellent !!!:
I think what i'm saying is that the reason why we are redirecting you and not answering your question directly, is that in our experience what your asking is not the best way to go at it.
So we ARE sharing our experiences, just not in the way you are hoping for.
I get it - I really do.

Given that mr. boss & I have known each other a very long time I made the call and told him outright that he needs to visit the breach clause of his centrex contract to see what it amounts to - and that there is a real problem getting POTS compatible stuff anymore because the world at large is shifting to VOIP and ditching POTS.

I thank all the folks here - and especially those who brought such wonderful clarity to this thread.

At this point I have been told to expect another call with mr. boss upon this subject next week as he leaves town tomorrow and will be busy with work elsewhere until then.

So:
Not to be too silly - but I am 'off the hook' for now on this matter - but I may be back asking more stuff later.

Thanks All for being so patient & helpful with me.
 

Asher

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Here's where the 'logic' of multiple 2-line gateways fail. In most businesses, multiple POTS are setup in a hunt group, If one of your OBI fails, the lines attached to them will never appear busy, the hunt group will never move on to the next in line. If you lose the last OBI, you may be OK, but if you lose the first, you might as well lose the entire gateway. KISS. A single device with enough ports.
 

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