QUESTION PIAF w/ POTS lines...clearly an icky topic.

[smallhagrid]

We have a small office with 5 people total and a contract with ma bell for 5 PSTN lines (+ 1 for fax).

We need to figure out how to get a reliable PBX for 10 stations maximum and the 5 FXO with voicemail.
We also need phones.
(This is to replace an older pre-VOIP PBX installation with proprietary phones.)

The ultimate goal is to make some effort and set it up - then shift over to it and to just have it be a dependable workhorse like the old PBX has been - not as an experiment, and solid/reliable will be better than minimal & cheap (as in trying to make all this out of tiny stuff via USB and such...).
There is room here for even a full-sized PC if that will be best.

Having searched and read and found too much info - this quest has become baffling.
There are too many choices between using a dedicated PC with cards added all the way to pre-configured gateways/appliances - and then the phones, it is enough to make one's head spin !!!

Getting specific h/w recommendations is really the biggest need here.
I am the tech who will be doing this at the office.
I have phone experience, but I am a newbie to the PC PBX realm.
I need to learn enough to get this right from others who know more than I do, if possible.

Please help with whatever guidance pointing to good value & reliability.
Suggestions of how we can get these things will be hugely appreciated.

Thanks for any help and guidance.

 

[rossiv]

So "without VoIP" can mean two things. It can mean without a VoIP provider for calling (which I believe is what you mean), or completely no VoIP (meaning no VoIP providers and no IP endpoints). Hopefully you mean the former of those two options.

That's definitely possible. My personal preference is to get some kind of Analog to IP Gateway to bridge those analog lines to PIAF. I like Patton gateways myself. They work very well and are rock solid.

Otherwise, it's just the same on the PIAF side. The Patton (or whatever gateway) gets configured as any other SIP trunk. You buy SIP phones that fit your taste. Call it a day.

I'd give you some IP phone models, but I don't know what you are looking for. What kind of environment is this?

 

[GomezAddams]

Buy 5 Obihai OBI 110 units and use them to connect to your PSTN lines.

As a bonus, you can connect up to 5 analog phones to the OBI FXS ports and make them look like sip phones to your PBX.

Your original post implies that you are already planning on doing this, but leave the fax machine on its own PSTN line.

The hardware to run it on is a bit trickier to answer. You'll need to think about the reliability, complexity, ease of recovery and cost trade-offs.

If I were doing what you describe, I'd install ESXi on a small form factor PC (or maybe even a NUC - if ESXi will run on it) with a solid-state drive. But I'm comfortable with ESX, and I'm addicted to the warm fuzzy feeling that you get when *know* you can simply backup the vmdk file for your virtual and have a 100% guaranteed fast painless recovery to any hardware.

I've never run PiaF on a RasberryPi, but that would be another option. They are cheap enough to keep a standby spare, and in case one failed, you'd just pop the SD card out of it, and into the spare. The only down side is that the pi version of PiaF is a bit out of the mainstream and requires a bit of tinkering to get running. Voicemail might be another problem. If you want lots of gigs of voicemail, you might not be able to get a big enough SD card.

If you have decent internet connectivity, you might consider using one of the cloud PBX options (but then again if you do this, you might as well port the PSTN numbers over to a VOIP provider too).

Another thing is to ask your users if they really want a desk phone. Some may be happy with simply forwarding their extension to their cell phone.

 

[smallhagrid]

Hello Rossiv, and thanks.
Your 1st idea of what I meant is exactly what I was trying to say, thanks !!

So "without VoIP" can mean two things. It can mean without a VoIP provider for calling (which I believe is what you mean), or completely no VoIP (meaning no VoIP providers and no IP endpoints). Hopefully you mean the former of those two options.

That's definitely possible. My personal preference is to get some kind of Analog to IP Gateway to bridge those analog lines to PIAF. I like Patton gateways myself. They work very well and are rock solid.

Otherwise, it's just the same on the PIAF side. The Patton (or whatever gateway) gets configured as any other SIP trunk. You buy SIP phones that fit your taste. Call it a day.

I'd give you some IP phone models, but I don't know what you are looking for. What kind of environment is this?

It is just a small office and needs the rather simple/normal stuff that an old fashioned office would have - like VM access, room-to-room calls via ext., call transfer, hold - the sort of stuff.
What is in place is shown here:

http://www.craigcommunications.com/nitsuko-92573-16-btn-display-phone.asp

I hope that clarifies things a bit and look forward to any help you may offer.

Thanks.

 

[smallhagrid]

Hello GomezAddams, thanks for this amazing - but baffling info !!

I am a very happy Obi110 user at home.
How to use them this way however - does baffle me - might you point me to where more info on this may be found, please ??

Buy 5 Obihai OBI 110 units and use them to connect to your PSTN lines.

As a bonus, you can connect up to 5 analog phones to the OBI FXS ports and make them look like sip phones to your PBX.

Your original post implies that you are already planning on doing this, but leave the fax machine on its own PSTN line.

Yes - the fax line is staying as-is, though it gets very little usage.

This is the main worry for me right now:

The hardware to run it on is a bit trickier to answer. You'll need to think about the reliability, complexity, ease of recovery and cost trade-offs.

As it is NOT OK to spend gobs of $$$ and have it work poorly or for only a short time - so I wish to get info from those who have much experience and skill in these matters.

Virtualization...:

If I were doing what you describe, I'd install ESXi on a small form factor PC (or maybe even a NUC - if ESXi will run on it) with a solid-state drive. But I'm comfortable with ESX, and I'm addicted to the warm fuzzy feeling that you get when *know* you can simply backup the vmdk file for your virtual and have a 100% guaranteed fast painless recovery to any hardware.

Is a bit beyond the scope of this project as I have zero experience and do not have time for adding that education to this project.

Not what is wanted, thanks:

I've never run PiaF on a RasberryPi, but that would be another option. They are cheap enough to keep a standby spare, and in case one failed, you'd just pop the SD card out of it, and into the spare. The only down side is that the pi version of PiaF is a bit out of the mainstream and requires a bit of tinkering to get running. Voicemail might be another problem. If you want lots of gigs of voicemail, you might not be able to get a big enough SD card.

Most likely it would be too fiddly; again - I have enough to learn for this without adding extra entire categories in this matter.

Thanks, no:

If you have decent internet connectivity, you might consider using one of the cloud PBX options (but then again if you do this, you might as well port the PSTN numbers over to a VOIP provider too).

Another thing is to ask your users if they really want a desk phone. Some may be happy with simply forwarding their extension to their cell phone.

My boss is an older guy and he wants no clouds - no wireless - no lines via VOIP.
He LIKES keeping ma bell around, and he IS the boss.

Seems to me there are realistically only 2 ways to proceed here in the larger view of this project:
1.
A gateway sort of thing like a Grandstream UCM6108 IP PBX;
2.
A good PC running a solid OS & good PBX s/w with the needed cards, etc. attached/added.

Personally, I lean towards #2 because depending upon single box solutions just gives me the willies for all the (seemingly ??) obvious (to me ??) reasons.

GomezAddams, given the thoughtfulness of your reply, I hope you may spare me a bit more effort to help me know more about using Obi boxes with a PBX, please ??
Running PBX software under Linux seems to me the best way to go as Linux is so very stable, and that along with the dependability of Obi boxes for the PSTN connections does sound quite attractive.

Thanks Very Much !!

 

[smallhagrid]

Did a search on Obi110 PBX PSTN and found:

Possible to use OBi110 to as an FXO port on an Asterisk server ...
... any documentation, or perhaps an article somewhere, that explains how to use an OBi110 as an interface to a PSTN line for an Asterisk PBX.
www.obitalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=57.0

Also:
Configuring an Obi 110 Device as an FXO Gateway (i.e., to allow FreePBX to use a regular phone line)
http://wiki.freepbx.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4161594

The 1st find is on the Obihai forum which is down almost as much as it is up these days; the 2nd is very limited in what info it presents and comparing the 2 still leaves me unclear upon this idea...?

Searching on obi110 pbx pstn fxo asterisk brought a bit more info, such as this excerpt:
"Review of the Obihai OBi110 VoIP device, Part 4: How to use the OBi110 as an FXO port with Asterisk and FreePBX"
http://tech.iprock.com/?p=3208

And this one, which may not fit if using an Obi with PIAF ??:
"Configuring the OBiHai OBi110 to replace a linksys spa-3102 as a google voice and pstn gateway using asterisk 1.4"
http://www.adrianandgenese.com/blog...le-voice-and-pstn-gateway-using-asterisk-1-4/

And this post here is also related, it seems:
http://pbxinaflash.com/community/index.php?threads/awesome-obihai-obi110-ata-with-google-voice.9364/

I found that I really had to add -raspberry to my searches just to avoid all the RPi stuff that does not interest me right now...and sadly that limited the results to about 20...so more and/or more specific info will be hugely appreciated ?!?

Thanks.

 

[AndyInNYC]

Facts as I know them:
You are going to have 5 phone lines and 10 phones; this means that 6 users likely can't user your analog lines (more on that later).
5 Obihi devices is +/- $300.
Since you have an analog system already, you likely have all your current phones exiting the building next to your current pbx.

Choices:
OK, almost any semi modern machine will handle this workload - you can pick up a pair of off-lease Dell's and have a spare machine for pocket change.

You can use an internal TDM card (make sure the Dell/HP/whatever takes the same height card as whatever you buy) in the machine. I'd make sure you get one with echo cancellation ("EC") in hardware. I have no idea what a Patton runs and have never used one, but rossiv always gives good advice.

Buy whatever IP phones your needs and budget warrant. I love my Yealink T46G and they make quite an impression on the bosses when they look at their company's logo as the wallpaper (easy to do). The Yealink's are now $145 a pop - cheaper choices abound. this choice assumes that cabling (Cat5/5e/6) is available for the phones. The T46G has a passthough, so you could have the phone plug into existing network cable and the computer plug into the phone; if a room only has 2 pair for the old analog phone then you'd have to run a new wire to that location (but then you could also drop a computer there too).

If your POTS carrier only allows a single call per line, configure a VOIP carrier as the 'next' choice when the lines are all being used - this is a way to ease your boss into VOIP and later convince him how to massively lower his telephone bill. This configuration is a mouse-click during your configuration. Most VOIP carriers will allow a deposit and let you slowly eat away at it. As an aside, a single DID (phone number) with a VOIP provider will handle 10 user outbound/inbound calls simultaneously; depending upon your needs for actual phone numbers the business could have 1 voice number and never worry that it will ring busy or not allow an outbound call.

This system will also allow your employees to fax from their desks using a print driver: want to fax a Word Doc? - just print it to the Hylafax driver installed on the system; this gives really clean copies for outbound faxing. You can set this up to use the VOIP provider and set the outbound callerID to your actual fax number. Very easy to set this up.

The major point here (assuming what you've told us is correct) is that you need a pretty simple (to start) system and just need to use outbound POTS lines. After a couple of deep breaths, some help from the board here and some small initial expense, you'll be up and running with (likely) very little agita.


Andrew

 

[smallhagrid]

Thank you Andrew !!!

Facts as I know them:

You are going to have 5 phone lines and 10 phones; this means that 6 users likely can't user your analog lines (more on that later).

There are only ever 5 people in the office unless a visitor needs to make a call so 5 POTS lines has always been enough.
The Old Man wants me to price it for 10 stations - but right now there's just 7 total in use.

The server closet is upstairs in the house and the cabling is all in place for everything to there:

5 Obihi devices is +/- $300.
Since you have an analog system already, you likely have all your current phones exiting the building next to your current pbx.

Adding network cabling for phones can also be done if needed as there is a conduit to the basement in place.

Getting or building a PC is no problem for me:

Choices:
OK, almost any semi modern machine will handle this workload - you can pick up a pair of off-lease Dell's and have a spare machine for pocket change.

Ummm...begging your pardon here, but=>

You can use an internal TDM card (make sure the Dell/HP/whatever takes the same height card as whatever you buy) in the machine. I'd make sure you get one with echo cancellation ("EC") in hardware. I have no idea what a Patton runs and have never used one, but rossiv always gives good advice.

This newbie has ZERO idea what a TDM card may be ??
(OK, quick searching on TDM card brought some results - but how to know which are good for the 5 ports I need ?!?)

A good starting point to look at as a specific phone model then, thanks:

Buy whatever IP phones your needs and budget warrant. I love my Yealink T46G and they make quite an impression on the bosses when they look at their company's logo as the wallpaper (easy to do). The Yealink's are now $145 a pop - cheaper choices abound. this choice assumes that cabling (Cat5/5e/6) is available for the phones. The T46G has a passthough, so you could have the phone plug into existing network cable and the computer plug into the phone; if a room only has 2 pair for the old analog phone then you'd have to run a new wire to that location (but then you could also drop a computer there too).

Yes - all desks have networked PCs and the old phones do not have CAT5 cabling, but that is no big problem.

Maybe someday...after the recently signed ma bell contract runs out:

If your POTS carrier only allows a single call per line, configure a VOIP carrier as the 'next' choice when the lines are all being used - this is a way to ease your boss into VOIP and later convince him how to massively lower his telephone bill. This configuration is a mouse-click during your configuration. Most VOIP carriers will allow a deposit and let you slowly eat away at it. As an aside, a single DID (phone number) with a VOIP provider will handle 10 user outbound/inbound calls simultaneously; depending upon your needs for actual phone numbers the business could have 1 voice number and never worry that it will ring busy or not allow an outbound call.

And by then the big boss will be retired - I may be as well !!!

A wonderful suggestion, thanks:

This system will also allow your employees to fax from their desks using a print driver: want to fax a Word Doc? - just print it to the Hylafax driver installed on the system; this gives really clean copies for outbound faxing. You can set this up to use the VOIP provider and set the outbound callerID to your actual fax number. Very easy to set this up.

Also gets the vote of 'someday' same as VOIP does.

Mostly what will help me the most is h/w pointers to start with right now:

The major point here (assuming what you've told us is correct) is that you need a pretty simple (to start) system and just need to use outbound POTS lines. After a couple of deep breaths, some help from the board here and some small initial expense, you'll be up and running with (likely) very little agita.

Once I can get the h/w questions handled, then it will be time to get serious about the cabling & s/w - but right now I need some good direction so I can work up 'numbers' to show the Old Man and the executive decisions will then be made by him based upon what info as I provide him.

Andrew, you've provided some very good pointers here, and I thank you most sincerely.

 

[synack]

I'm not sure you would need a TDM (time division multiplexing) card. That would be a T1/PRI/BRI/ISDN type digital connection.
If all you have are 5 single analog pots lines coming in, FXO cards are likely what you are looking for. (as you identified).

I've used a grandstream 4104 for a small office for half a year during a transistion and it worked OK. I did need to reboot it once when it stopped receiving calls. However that might have been a power glitch or something. You would likely be looking at an 8 port. I think they can be had for <$300 and will work in a "hunt group" type configuration.
A much more expensive solution would involve digium FXO cards. I hear however they are great.
Having said that, I'm by no means a expert at what's best for FXO interfaces.
I myself prefer a full VoIP solution and usually convince "the Boss" it's better, even if it means breaking a contract or allowing it run out.

I have seen many cases where the long distance savings alone paid for a full voip solution 3 times over.

 

[smallhagrid]

Thanks Synack.
I went looking for FXO cards to start with (prior to posting here), and could not figure out what might be a good choice; then it was suggested here to use Obi boxes as the FXO ports - then the TDM card idea...
Colour me lost.
Lots of valuable pointers are here - but they seem to be at odds with one another.

Regarding POTS vs. full VOIP:
The lines are on a Centrex contract, have the hunt group defined via Centrex, and LD is all-you-can-eat & included in the price from ma bell.
It will be in use until the contract comes up again with a certainty - this is not a question right now.

The most attractive types of solutions for this situation are enumerated in my post #5, above - BUT:
Even now I remain on the fence about gateway/appliance things vs. PC-based PBX.

The central bafflement for me is that I just really, seriously do not know enough in order to make an intelligent choice for whatever does the FXO portion if we go with the PC-PBX idea.

As for the pre-made PBX box idea=>
I have a quote from someplace for a Grandstream UCM6108 IP PBX box - but I do not even know whether that model is overkill as compared with the 4104; for certain the quoted price is higher than ~$300, thus I wonder about it.

These are unsafe waters to navigate for someone like myself who only really knows they need to go <=thataway=> !!

Huge Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to relate with all this and who may offer guidance learned from similar situations.

 

[TwigsUSAN]

The UCM is truly a PBX. Do search on the nerdvittles and I believe you will find a review. The 4104 is a analog to VoIP gateway only. You would still need to build the PBX portion. You may want to consider finding a local contractor who builds VoIP PBX systems.

 

[smallhagrid]

Thanks.
I can easily build PCs all day long, no problem - I just need to get started the right way learning by doing VOIP a bit.
I've done PC work for ~20 years - not a stranger to tech a'tall, but=>
My phone system exposure is all pre-VOIP (except for the Obi).

If I could locate a good/full/used Dash/Picazo system for the office I'd grab it and put it in without any hesitation.
That would be a nice, easy, perfect fit for what is needed.
Lacking for something like that which is perfectly made for this situation, I need to locate what WILL work, learn a bit about it, and make it happen.

I am posting here to get help with this project; not to be told to go hire some other guy to do what I asked for help in doing myself, thanks.

 

[TwigsUSAN]

I didn't tell you to hire someone, I suggested it.

You will need an Analog to VoIP converter of some sort. Everyone has personal preference. Some use internal cards while other use external gateways.

I can't think of any of the internal brands off the top of my head.

Companies that have external ones are Grandstream, Payton, Audiocodes, OBI, Linksys, etc.

I have used the Audiocodes and work, and can tell you they have a ton of options and can be complicated. I haven't tried to configure one with PiAF yet. That is on my list of things to do.

I have used Polycoms, Aastras, Grandstreams, and the Yealink W52P. All are fairly easy to program and if you really want it to be easier, you could get the endpoint manager.

 

[AndyInNYC]

Synack,

I was referring to something like the Digium TDM800P which would handle his 5 incoming lines (he wouldn't need the extra 3 ports at present and has no analog phones).

Andrew

I'm not sure you would need a TDM (time division multiplexing) card. That would be a T1/PRI/BRI/ISDN type digital connection.
If all you have are 5 single analog pots lines coming in, FXO cards are likely what you are looking for. (as you identified).

I've used a grandstream 4104 for a small office for half a year during a transistion and it worked OK. I did need to reboot it once when it stopped receiving calls. However that might have been a power glitch or something. You would likely be looking at an 8 port. I think they can be had for <$300 and will work in a "hunt group" type configuration.
A much more expensive solution would involve digium FXO cards. I hear however they are great.
Having said that, I'm by no means a expert at what's best for FXO interfaces.
I myself prefer a full VoIP solution and usually convince "the Boss" it's better, even if it means breaking a contract or allowing it run out.

I have seen many cases where the long distance savings alone paid for a full voip solution 3 times over.

 

[GomezAddams]

One point of advice: If you buy a multiport FXO card (or two), or a single gateway unit, you have a significant impact if it fails.

5 Obi 110 units will be about the same price, but if one fails, the impact is low. You can afford to keep a spare. On the other hand, OBI's don't have hardware echo cancellation. I've not run into problems, but I've not used them much in this manner.

As you've found, there is documentation on the web as how to use the Obi's FXO and FXS ports with asterisk.

ESX is simple to use. 30 minutes and you'll have your virtual machine up and running. But, it is probably overkill. Just grab an old PC and run your PBX on on it. Keep a spare around just in case.

 

[synack]

Synack,

I was referring to something like the Digium TDM800P which would handle his 5 incoming lines (he wouldn't need the extra 3 ports at present and has no analog phones).

Andrew

Ah I see what you mean. That's the same Digium cards that I was also referring to. However while the model numbers are TDM8xx, they are not actually TDM cards. highly confusing for sure, IMHO likely the reason they were "discontinued" and renamed to A8. Taking a look at model numbers, the current Digium PCI-E card populated with 8 FXO ports and hardware echo cancellation is: 1A8B03F. A quick google shows <$1000.00

 

[TwigsUSAN]

One point of advice: If you buy a multiport FXO card (or two), or a single gateway unit, you have a significant impact if it fails.

5 Obi 110 units will be about the same price, but if one fails, the impact is low. You can afford to keep a spare. On the other hand, OBI's don't have hardware echo cancellation. I've not run into problems, but I've not used them much in this manner.

As you've found, there is documentation on the web as how to use the Obi's FXO and FXS ports with asterisk.

ESX is simple to use. 30 minutes and you'll have your virtual machine up and running. But, it is probably overkill. Just grab an old PC and run your PBX on on it. Keep a spare around just in case.

That is a route to go, but you still have the issue of multiple network connections and power as well. Most small server closets, in my experience, power is not a luxury. If anything, if external was chosen, I would do two 4 port gateways and evenly distribute the lines.

 

[AndyInNYC]

After logging in to my account at TelephonyDepot.com I priced a Digium TDM card
A8A00F - $197.20
VPM032 (hardware EC) - $181.70
4 Port FXO - $135.30
Single Port FXO (XM100) - $34.00
Shipping - $11.75

$559.95 Delivered

5 outgoing lines, 3 spare lines for 'growth' (not sure adding POTS lines is growth <g>).

Regards,

Andrew

 

[atsak]

This is one of the times I'd think seriously, given the limited exposure to VOIP and the need for copper support, about an appliance. For 2-300.00 more you'll get everything in a simple box that will work.

Switchvox or AAstraLink or the Grandstream are a couple that run on Asterisk is but are self contained appliances. I don't use them but it seems to me you've got a really big learning curve here that will suck up a lot of time that might not be worth it for you.

 

[synack]

Digium TDM card

lol... My OCD is making me twitch...